Comments on: Movage http://blog.longnow.org/2008/12/11/movage/ The Official Weblog of The Long Now Foundation and Friends Sat, 13 Mar 2010 16:53:16 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: george http://blog.longnow.org/2008/12/11/movage/comment-page-1/#comment-8067 george Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:04:51 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/2008/12/11/movage/#comment-8067 @Jonathan: it is very likely that if a JPG image reaches anyone in 10,000 years, the JPG (and other file format) specs would be preserved alongside. the thing with digital is that data does not deteriorate as it's copied, so effectively you can preserve a file indefinitely without requiring special conditions (esp. given movage). the reality, however, is that we're expecting archival quality from a medium produced without such intention (the dvd). re data formatting, with virtual machines being everywhere nowadays i can't see a problem reproducing a custom environment of any age and platform. the other thing is, there are recommendations for archival recordings and formats we should archive in. take an ubiquitous format as PDF for instance. in reality, we're now able to open files created using a technology that's more than 17 years old. - http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/pdfs/pdfarchiving.pdf to give a brief example. @Jonathan: it is very likely that if a JPG image reaches anyone in 10,000 years, the JPG (and other file format) specs would be preserved alongside. the thing with digital is that data does not deteriorate as it’s copied, so effectively you can preserve a file indefinitely without requiring special conditions (esp. given movage). the reality, however, is that we’re expecting archival quality from a medium produced without such intention (the dvd).

re data formatting, with virtual machines being everywhere nowadays i can’t see a problem reproducing a custom environment of any age and platform. the other thing is, there are recommendations for archival recordings and formats we should archive in.

take an ubiquitous format as PDF for instance. in reality, we’re now able to open files created using a technology that’s more than 17 years old. – http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/pdfs/pdfarchiving.pdf to give a brief example.

]]> By: Jonathan http://blog.longnow.org/2008/12/11/movage/comment-page-1/#comment-6038 Jonathan Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:20:03 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/2008/12/11/movage/#comment-6038 It's nice to hear that there are some new data formats that are on the horizon, Sid. The problem remains, however, with formatting. Can you open a Word document from ten years ago? What about an image file from a thirty year old tape drive? Do you think anyone will know what a JPEG is in 10,000 years? .doc? .tiff? .psd? Etc. I'm more concerned about the data formatting problem then I am about the storage medium problem! It’s nice to hear that there are some new data formats that are on the horizon, Sid. The problem remains, however, with formatting. Can you open a Word document from ten years ago? What about an image file from a thirty year old tape drive?

Do you think anyone will know what a JPEG is in 10,000 years? .doc? .tiff? .psd? Etc.

I’m more concerned about the data formatting problem then I am about the storage medium problem!

]]> By: Sid http://blog.longnow.org/2008/12/11/movage/comment-page-1/#comment-6022 Sid Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:25:33 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/2008/12/11/movage/#comment-6022 This problem is well known and solutions are being sought, tow of the more promising options are molecular storage and crystal storage. in molecular storage you take a molecule and make subtle changes, for example a long carbon nano tube..... this tube can be read along its length. use a normal C12 atom for say a zero and a C13 atom for 1. the second is crystal storage. here you grow a crystal and the patterns of deformities of the crystal make up your data. (think of the first as andromeda strain and the second as superman!) these methods will create storage that can last for eons. This problem is well known and solutions are being sought, tow of the more promising options are molecular storage and crystal storage.
in molecular storage you take a molecule and make subtle changes, for example a long carbon nano tube….. this tube can be read along its length. use a normal C12 atom for say a zero and a C13 atom for 1.
the second is crystal storage. here you grow a crystal and the patterns of deformities of the crystal make up your data.
(think of the first as andromeda strain and the second as superman!)
these methods will create storage that can last for eons.

]]> By: Zane Selvans http://blog.longnow.org/2008/12/11/movage/comment-page-1/#comment-6017 Zane Selvans Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:54:01 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/2008/12/11/movage/#comment-6017 This is absolutely, desperately true, and it's why the data-silo businesses are an unmitigated information preservation disaster. How do you get your precious data out of iPhoto or Flickr, or your legacy proprietary blogging software that you started using before WordPress or TypePad took off? A lot of "movage" is impossible without standardized data interchange formats, but a lot of information-based businesses are built around the immovable silo model... not the least of which is academic publishing! This isn't even necessarily about the format of the data itself, which is often standardized text, video, images, etc, but about all of the "glue" that holds the data together into come coherent, meaningful whole. The metadata - places, times, annotations, authorship, identity, and the associations between them all. There are a few beacons of hope, but it's not clear they'll prevail (e.g. OpenID, OAuth, IntenseDebate, XFN, and a profligate mess of other XML based data structures), because the organizations that currently contain the data have no incentive to support them. Digital Dark Age indeed. This is absolutely, desperately true, and it’s why the data-silo businesses are an unmitigated information preservation disaster. How do you get your precious data out of iPhoto or Flickr, or your legacy proprietary blogging software that you started using before WordPress or TypePad took off? A lot of “movage” is impossible without standardized data interchange formats, but a lot of information-based businesses are built around the immovable silo model… not the least of which is academic publishing! This isn’t even necessarily about the format of the data itself, which is often standardized text, video, images, etc, but about all of the “glue” that holds the data together into come coherent, meaningful whole. The metadata – places, times, annotations, authorship, identity, and the associations between them all. There are a few beacons of hope, but it’s not clear they’ll prevail (e.g. OpenID, OAuth, IntenseDebate, XFN, and a profligate mess of other XML based data structures), because the organizations that currently contain the data have no incentive to support them.

Digital Dark Age indeed.

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