Comments on: Debt: The first five thousand years http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/ The Official Weblog of The Long Now Foundation and Friends Sat, 11 Feb 2012 23:43:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Steven Hales http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-22581 Steven Hales Sat, 29 Oct 2011 17:54:00 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-22581 Could it also be that ideas are akin to inventions each having many fathers (mothers). The most famous example being Darwin and Wallace and the origin of the species.  But even the lightbulb had 8 or more almost simultaneous inventors.  You might consider that Smith's observation was inevitable even without the Persian example.  Could it also be that ideas are akin to inventions each having many fathers (mothers). The most famous example being Darwin and Wallace and the origin of the species.  But even the lightbulb had 8 or more almost simultaneous inventors.  You might consider that Smith’s observation was inevitable even without the Persian example. 

]]> By: advin jhonsire http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-22512 advin jhonsire Fri, 09 Sep 2011 16:57:00 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-22512 It was my understanding that the bill early trading, the value of barley, cows or not, in connection with silver or other metals. The interest rate is increased due to the fruitful nature of the loan - and will be charged as a percentage of the harvest, not the original loan. It was my understanding that the bill early trading, the value of barley, cows or not, in connection with silver or other metals. The interest rate is increased due to the fruitful nature of the loan – and will be charged as a percentage of the harvest, not the original loan.

]]> By: cityeyrie http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-22489 cityeyrie Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:44:00 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-22489 Interesting article, hadn't really thought about slavery's relationship to debt as opposed to debt's relationship to slavery. One small point of fact - it was my understanding that early bills of credit measured values in barley or cows, not in relation to silver or other metal. Interest arose as a consequence of the fruitful nature of the loan - and charged as a percentage of the harvest, not the original loan. Interest became a burden when people switched to setting values in non-reproducing metals, and charged interest as a percentage of the loan, not a percentage of the profit made from whatever activity that loan facilitated. The usury banned by most religions is precisely this first form of loan - where the debtor has all the risk, and the creditor little besides the bother of selling whatever was put up for collateral. Interesting article, hadn’t really thought about slavery’s relationship to debt as opposed to debt’s relationship to slavery.
One small point of fact – it was my understanding that early bills of credit measured values in barley or cows, not in relation to silver or other metal. Interest arose as a consequence of the fruitful nature of the loan – and charged as a percentage of the harvest, not the original loan. Interest became a burden when people switched to setting values in non-reproducing metals, and charged interest as a percentage of the loan, not a percentage of the profit made from whatever activity that loan facilitated. The usury banned by most religions is precisely this first form of loan – where the debtor has all the risk, and the creditor little besides the bother of selling whatever was put up for collateral.

]]> By: The race to the buyout – how we might be in a bubble | Jonathan Brun http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-22421 The race to the buyout – how we might be in a bubble | Jonathan Brun Wed, 20 Jul 2011 14:17:43 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-22421 [...] foundation, which include Jeff Bezzos of Amazon.com, understand this. They wrote a great piece on the history of debt here and are building a clock that will last 10,000 years – that is what I’m talking [...] [...] foundation, which include Jeff Bezzos of Amazon.com, understand this. They wrote a great piece on the history of debt here and are building a clock that will last 10,000 years – that is what I’m talking [...]

]]> By: Themichael http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-22384 Themichael Thu, 14 Jul 2011 15:08:43 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-22384 Whoops -- very few real-world transactions conform to the kind of trade you imagine here, Taoist, which is barter. The ideological work done by orthodox economics is to lead us to imagine that we can abstract away from the pervasive use of money in actual trade and instead imagine the whole thing as a network of barter. And, as you suggest, why would people bother to exchange one thing for another if they did not mutually benefit? However, the point is that the use of money brings the transaction, directly or indirectly, into contact with the practices that are used to establish and maintain the monetary standard. And, depending on the historical era, such practices are more or less coercive. Under the more coercive monetary standards, you can't resort to your theorem that if people can be bothered to trade, there must be mutual benefit. Whoops — very few real-world transactions conform to the kind of trade you imagine here, Taoist, which is barter. The ideological work done by orthodox economics is to lead us to imagine that we can abstract away from the pervasive use of money in actual trade and instead imagine the whole thing as a network of barter. And, as you suggest, why would people bother to exchange one thing for another if they did not mutually benefit? However, the point is that the use of money brings the transaction, directly or indirectly, into contact with the practices that are used to establish and maintain the monetary standard. And, depending on the historical era, such practices are more or less coercive. Under the more coercive monetary standards, you can't resort to your theorem that if people can be bothered to trade, there must be mutual benefit.

]]> By: Robert Searle http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-22419 Robert Searle Wed, 13 Jul 2011 12:29:00 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-22419 Yes, this is all very interest....but what about a new, and revolutionary understanding of capital....... http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Transfinancial_Economics http://p2pfoundation.net/Introduction_to_Transfinancial_Economics Yes, this is all very interest….but what about a new, and revolutionary understanding of capital…….

http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Transfinancial_Economics

http://p2pfoundation.net/Introduction_to_Transfinancial_Economics

]]> By: John http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-22374 John Tue, 05 Jul 2011 23:57:01 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-22374 Dr Graeber<br><br>This is a most fascinating article.  I saw you on Democracy Now and found this with a search.  I will get your book when it comes out.<br><br>One thing that interests me is how your work complements the historical view of Rudolf Steiner, especially in his view of social history.  Your dates line up quite well with what he points to as the beginning and end of the various epochs.  And then your descriptions of the epochs is quite in line with his. Dr Graeber

This is a most fascinating article.  I saw you on Democracy Now and found this with a search.  I will get your book when it comes out.

One thing that interests me is how your work complements the historical view of Rudolf Steiner, especially in his view of social history.  Your dates line up quite well with what he points to as the beginning and end of the various epochs.  And then your descriptions of the epochs is quite in line with his.

]]> By: Daniel Bartsch http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-22138 Daniel Bartsch Sun, 01 May 2011 13:22:59 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-22138 With the destruction of ecosystems, there is the destruction of family and friends that is replaced by complex violent marauder organizations, in order to extract from damaged ecosystems, and a default of personal relations to colleague, and comrade and stylized marriage. Those less personal relations require some kind of economic "keeping track" either with virtual/religious/fantasy, or in the form of metal/military. Both are inferior to an intact ecosystem. A new ecosystem could be a mix of artificial, and the previous natural, as long as all biochemical, personal relations, information, and energy loops balance in a stable healthy and personal way. With the destruction of ecosystems, there is the destruction of family and friends that is replaced by complex violent marauder organizations, in order to extract from damaged ecosystems, and a default of personal relations to colleague, and comrade and stylized marriage. Those less personal relations require some kind of economic “keeping track” either with virtual/religious/fantasy, or in the form of metal/military. Both are inferior to an intact ecosystem. A new ecosystem could be a mix of artificial, and the previous natural, as long as all biochemical, personal relations, information, and energy loops balance in a stable healthy and personal way.

]]> By: Peter http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-20322 Peter Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:54:25 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-20322 >El Rei: I preordered my copy here: http://www.bookdepository.com/book/9781933633862/Debt. Bona sort. >El Rei:
I preordered my copy here: http://www.bookdepository.com/book/9781933633862/Debt.

Bona sort.

]]> By: [en] History and Violence « Ars Nihili http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-20267 [en] History and Violence « Ars Nihili Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:43:40 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-20267 [...] by _andre Leave a Comment On his article on the History of Debt, anthropologist Graeber comes to the conclusion that we cannot ignore the role of Violence in [...] [...] by _andre Leave a Comment On his article on the History of Debt, anthropologist Graeber comes to the conclusion that we cannot ignore the role of Violence in [...]

]]> By: [pt] História e Violência « Ars Nihili http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-20265 [pt] História e Violência « Ars Nihili Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:17:42 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-20265 [...] by _andre Leave a Comment Em seu artigo sobre a História da Dívida, o antropólogo Graeber chega à conclusão de que não se pode menosprezar o papel da Violência [...] [...] by _andre Leave a Comment Em seu artigo sobre a História da Dívida, o antropólogo Graeber chega à conclusão de que não se pode menosprezar o papel da Violência [...]

]]> By: El Rei http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-20213 El Rei Wed, 09 Jun 2010 19:36:17 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-20213 I'm interested in buying the book but having a hard time finding it...can someone post/send a link? I’m interested in buying the book but having a hard time finding it…can someone post/send a link?

]]> By: Peter http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-20115 Peter Sun, 30 May 2010 10:11:14 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-20115 "Or even just copying it and pasting it into a word file and doing so?" Surely Dr Graeber is not writing such superb contributions to anarchism aided by Microsoft products?? I wonder if you could tell us where End User Agreements fit into this history! :P Just pre-ordered the book, looks like yet another winner if this taster is anything to go by. If you'll forgive the militaristic metaphor, it's always refreshing to see another arrow in the side of free-market evangelism and its stranglehold on economic history, and this is certainly not your first. All the best! “Or even just copying it and pasting it into a word file and doing so?”

Surely Dr Graeber is not writing such superb contributions to anarchism aided by Microsoft products?? I wonder if you could tell us where End User Agreements fit into this history! :P

Just pre-ordered the book, looks like yet another winner if this taster is anything to go by. If you’ll forgive the militaristic metaphor, it’s always refreshing to see another arrow in the side of free-market evangelism and its stranglehold on economic history, and this is certainly not your first. All the best!

]]> By: izik http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-19934 izik Thu, 20 May 2010 08:24:17 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-19934 Thanks for all your work Dave. I'd love if you incorporated the economic impact (specifically in the arena of debt) of the closely knit history of private institutions printing money for public states. Thanks for all your work Dave. I’d love if you incorporated the economic impact (specifically in the arena of debt) of the closely knit history of private institutions printing money for public states.

]]> By: Beware of Debt « Jim Grisanzio http://blog.longnow.org/2010/04/22/debt-the-first-five-thousand-years/comment-page-1/#comment-19862 Beware of Debt « Jim Grisanzio Fri, 14 May 2010 13:31:50 +0000 http://blog.longnow.org/?p=2039#comment-19862 [...] a perfectly horrifying (and excellent) read about the forces binding history and economics — Debt: The first five thousand years by David Graeber Some clips (quotes in [...] [...] a perfectly horrifying (and excellent) read about the forces binding history and economics — Debt: The first five thousand years by David Graeber Some clips (quotes in [...]

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